Doug Mason

Joined

• started 457 topics
• posted 2,351 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Doug Mason

• 
  10

  Who was the devil that tested Jesus in the Wilderness?

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  when i started investigating "the temptations" at matthew chapter 4, i had no idea that i would develop the ideas contained in my study paper.

  so it cannot honestly be said that i set out to prove the conclusions i arrived at.. it is available at:.

  http://www.jwstudies.com/the_devil_who_tested_jesus.pdf .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Phizzy,

  I highly recommend the book "Crucible of Faith" by Philip Jenkins. It discusses the sources of Christianity and of that other Abrahamic religion, Islam. This is the book's publicity:

  Doug

  ================

  In “Crucible of Faith: The ancient revolution that made our modern religious world”, Philip Jenkins describes how the Judeo-Christian tradition we know today was born between 250–50 BC, during the turbulent “Crucible Era”—a time when Jews grappled with overwhelming forces of Hellenization and globalization. As a result, Judaism produced new religious ideas that responded to a changing world.

  The revolutionary politics of the 160s BC created an apocalyptic world-view where earthly struggles reveal a cosmic significance, a universe dominated by angels and demons. By the time of the fall of the Temple in 70 AD, concepts that might once have seemed bizarre became normalized—and thus passed on to Christianity and later Islam.
• 
  10

  Who was the devil that tested Jesus in the Wilderness?

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  when i started investigating "the temptations" at matthew chapter 4, i had no idea that i would develop the ideas contained in my study paper.

  so it cannot honestly be said that i set out to prove the conclusions i arrived at.. it is available at:.

  http://www.jwstudies.com/the_devil_who_tested_jesus.pdf .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Phizzy,

  Thank you for pointing me in the next direction.

  Where indeed did these "NT" writers get their material and ideas? I bow to superior minds who posit a source they name "Q", but there is enough speculation without resorting to that.

  What were those writers' sources? They were writing in detail of events that took place decades earlier -- often contradicting one another -- or in the case of apocalypses, they write in detail of future events.

  I do not think these ideas came to the NT writers "out of the blue". I have material that indicates the sources they used, and which were part of contemporary Judaism's DNA, is to be found in the books of the Second Temple Period, particularly 1 Enoch, Jubilees and the DSS. The NT writers quote from and allude extensively to those writings.

  One interesting book is: "Reading Romans in Context: Paul and Second Temple Judaism", Ben Blackwell (etc.) There is more that needs to be investigated.

  I wonder if it matters whether a saying attributed to Jesus is "true" or not. I think that what matters is to ask: What was the writer saying to his/their immediate community, and the reason? What was going on at the time in that community at the time they were writing?

  This not unreasonable. Read any modern-day polemic and it is pitched at a modern-day community. These modern-day polemics are not being written to some community living in 2000 years time.

  Doug
• 
  10

  Who was the devil that tested Jesus in the Wilderness?

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  when i started investigating "the temptations" at matthew chapter 4, i had no idea that i would develop the ideas contained in my study paper.

  so it cannot honestly be said that i set out to prove the conclusions i arrived at.. it is available at:.

  http://www.jwstudies.com/the_devil_who_tested_jesus.pdf .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  You are very kind, Phizzy.

  I never insist that people agree with me. I only insist that people think, and that they think for themselves.

  One thing I did not pursue is the matter of who would have provided the Matthew writers such detail, especially as they lived half a century after the supposed event.

  Regards,

  Doug
• 
  10

  Who was the devil that tested Jesus in the Wilderness?

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  when i started investigating "the temptations" at matthew chapter 4, i had no idea that i would develop the ideas contained in my study paper.

  so it cannot honestly be said that i set out to prove the conclusions i arrived at.. it is available at:.

  http://www.jwstudies.com/the_devil_who_tested_jesus.pdf .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Hi,

  When I started investigating "The Temptations" at Matthew chapter 4, I had no idea that I would develop the ideas contained in my Study Paper. So it cannot honestly be said that I set out to prove the conclusions I arrived at.

  It is available at:

  http://www.jwstudies.com/THE_DEVIL_WHO_TESTED_JESUS.pdf
  

  Doug
• 
  51

  Why go back to the Old Testament?

  by Lost in the fog in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

  such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

  surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Actually, things like hospitals, etc., came from Islam. They were miles ahead, as well as with astronomy, architecture, and mathematics, while the superstitious Christians were dunking women in the pond to see if they would drown, while the church was selling Indulgences, while Luther and Calvin were urging and praising the authorities for burning and torturing their religious opponents.

  You are correct in admitting your ideas are only based on faith, I call that superstition and speculation.

  Why would anyone think that a Bible is "The Word of God"? And which of the Bibles is meant? Especially as no one knows what was originally written.

  Doug
• 
  51

  Why go back to the Old Testament?

  by Lost in the fog in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

  such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

  surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Diogenesister,

  That's interesting, because the NT writers quote extensively from 1 Enoch, Sirach, and Jubilees, at least.

  I wonder how they rationalise the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible, or the canon of Codex Siniaticus, or the canon of the Orthodox Church.

  Only the RCs have taken a vote on the list of books. They did that in the 16th century at the Council of Trent. Protestants have never taken a vote. They accept Tradition!

  Martin Luther wanted some NT books removed from the Bible, including James and Revelation.

  Some modern-day scholars would like to see the NT Canon revisited, especially that we now know that Paul was personally responsible for only 7 of the 13 epistles attributed to him: 1 Thess., 1 Cor., 2 Cor, Gal., Philippians, Philemon, Romans. The others were written decades after his death.

  Doug
• 
  51

  Why go back to the Old Testament?

  by Lost in the fog in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

  such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

  surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  TTWSYF,

  You have no idea what Jesus actually said. He did not leave anything in writing.

  You are only able to read what people wrote several decades later. And the words they put onto Jesus' lips were their own words to their own community.

  Doug
• 
  51

  Why go back to the Old Testament?

  by Lost in the fog in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

  such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

  surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  The Hebrew Scriptures and its Greek translation (the Septuagint -- LXX), as well as books such as 1 Enoch, Jubilees, Sirach, etc., were the authoritative source for the "Jesus-follower" writers. Particularly as their foes - the Pharisees - accepted Tradition as being equal to the written word.

  There is also no way that any of the NT writings is to be taken as literal history. None of it is a documentary in the sense that we understand. They were writing religious material, not documentary evidence. The Gospels and the Book of Acts are religious fictions, artfully crafted to manufacture religious outcomes and behaviours. The writings by Paul are simply his opinions -- not shared by all of his contemporaries.

  Doug
• 
  4

  Matthew 7:13-14 and Revelation 7:9.

  by Sergey Antonov in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in matthew 7:13-14 says :“enter through the narrow gate, because wide is the gate and spacious the road that leads to destruction, and many go through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it.

  and revelation 7: 9 says of the great multitude, " after this i saw, and look.

  of all the nations and tribes, and nations, and languages, standing before the throne and the lamb, dressed in white clothes, there was a great crowd that no man could count; and in their hands was the palm branches.".

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Matthew was written by a community living in 85 CE. The writers were telling the members of their community of their expectations in the light of the pressures they were experiencing, particularly at the hands of the Pharisees. Those Pharisees accepted Tradition to be on a par with the written text but the "Matthew" group were very strictly aligned to the letter of the Biblical Law (not a jot or tittle, as the KJV used to say).

  The Book of Revelation was composed by a very different group at a different time for a different purpose. It is a highly erotic symbolic flight of fancy. Clearly also very legalistic Jewish in its outlook. It is a compilation of material from the Jewish writings and I suspect that you will gain a far better insight by reading books such as 1 Enoch and Jubilees to determine whether you can locate the source of the particular passage in Revelation you are referring to.

  I suspect that the only place where Matthew and Revelation can be compared is with the 5th Discourse, often termed "The Little Apocalypse" (Matt 23ff).

  The passage at Matt 7 appears in the First Discourse formulated by the writers of Matthew.

  Doug

  PS. The words attributed to Jesus are actually the words of the writers placed on his lips.
• 
  12

  Request for Australian research: ban on Jehovah's Witnesses in 1941

  by JW83 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am planning on revisiting my (academic) research into the banning of jws in australia in 1941, and was wondering if anyone would have contacts i could interview?

  this is obviously a long shot (and it may be children/grandchildren) but i thought it may be worth a shot!.

  i am an ex-jw and academic historian, you can see my former published work on jws here: http://www.flinders.edu.au/sabs/shir/our-research/research-journals/fjhp/2008.cfm.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Hi Jayne,

  In the late 1970s I located a number of articles in "Smith's Weekly". I do not think that I have either the copies nor my summary of dates, but I will have a look.

  These are at the State Library of Victoria. At that time, all we had were micro fiche, but you could search the Library Catalogue. Just poke SLV into your search engine.

  I wish you well. My email address is:

  doug_mason1940

  @

  yahoo

  com

  au